Frequently Thrown Tantrums
Yes, we're aware that a lot of people are upset about the very existence of The Celtic Golden Dawn and the Druidical Order of the Golden Dawn. No, we don't particularly care - but it can be entertaining, on occasion, to listen to the hissy fits that result. Some of the more common tantrums are collected below, with our responses. If you came to this website in order to denounce The Celtic Golden Dawn, the Druidical Order of the Golden Dawn, John Michael Greer, or any combination of the above, please take the time to read all the way through this page. If your tantrum isn't one we've posted, please send it to us and we'll consider it for inclusion!
Celtic/Druid Section
I am the one and only inheritor of the exclusive authentic ancient Druid tradition and I demand that you stop calling yourselves Druids.
Let's see, you're the seventeenth one and only inheritor of the sole and exclusive authentic ancient Druid tradition to contact us so far this month. Please take a number and we'll get to your complaint in the order received.
You can't call yourselves Druids unless you practice the kind of Druidry I do.
Apparently we missed the memo announcing that somebody died and made you Hu Gadarn. When we get that memo, we'll consider your claim.
Nobody knows anything about the magic of the ancient Druids, so your order is fake.
We don't claim to practice the magic of the ancient Druids, so your objection is irrelevant.
The ancient Celts didn't practice geomancy or alchemy, and so real Druids like me don't practice them either.
The ancient Celts didn't use computers, either, so why are you reading this website?
I have Irish ancestors so you should let me join your order for that reason all by itself.
You seem to have mistaken us for the Ancient Order of Hibernians. Your Celtic ancestry, or lack of same, is irrelevant to our work.
But I want to join your group so I can learn all about the religious traditions of my ancient Irish ancestors.
You might want to try learning all about basic reading comprehension first, as we're a magical order, not a religious one; our traditions have Welsh roots rather than Irish; and we don't have the teachings of anybody's ancient ancestors to pass on. (Neither does anyone else, but we decided to get radical and be honest about it.)
If you were really a Celtic order you'd use Irish terms and deities instead of Welsh ones.
We encourage you to go into a bar anywhere in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, or the Isle of Man and say that the Irish are the only real Celts. Don't expect to leave with all your teeth, though.
You're just following in the footsteps of Golden Dawn pseudo-Druids like William Butler Yeats.
Yeats won the Nobel Prize for literature, wrote some of the English language's greatest poems, and played a central role in the late 19th century renaissance of Irish culture. And you?
Druidry is patriarchal and sexist.
You might want to tell that to the smart, capable, hardworking women who make up a good half of the membership and leadership of most Druid orders these days. I don't think they've heard.
How can you justify wasting your time playing at being Druids when the world is facing so many terrible crises?
If the situation is really that bad, why are you taking the time to troll our website?
Golden Dawn Section
I am the one and only inheritor of the exclusive authentic Golden Dawn tradition and I demand that you stop using the Golden Dawn name.
Let's see, you're the thirteenth one and only inheritor of the exclusive authentic Golden Dawn tradition to contact us so far this month. Please take a number and we'll get to your complaint in the order received, just as soon as we finish with the one and only inheritors of the exclusive authentic ancient Druid tradition.
You can't call yourselves Golden Dawn unless you practice the kind of Golden Dawn magic I do.
Apparently we also missed the memo announcing that somebody died and made you the Great Angel Hua. When we get that memo, we'll consider your claim.
How dare you tamper with the original Golden Dawn rituals!
The original Golden Dawn repeatedly tampered with the original Golden Dawn rituals, once Westcott and Mathers finished cobbling them together from the sketchy notes in the Cipher Manuscript, and every one of the Golden Dawn's successor orders did the same thing. If they can do it, so can we.
How dare you tamper with the original Golden Dawn symbolism, correspondences, and attributions!
Like every other living tradition, the Golden Dawn repeatedly tampered with its own symbolism, correspondences, and attributions in a dizzying variety of ways, and so did all of its successor orders. If they can do it, so can we.
How dare you claim that people can self-initiate into any Golden Dawn-related tradition!
Westcott, Woodman, and Mathers self-initiated into the original Golden Dawn in the course of founding the order - there wasn't anyone else to do it for them, you know. If they can do it, so can we.
You can't call yourselves Golden Dawn unless you have an authentic lineage descending from the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
The original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn made up its lineage out of whole cloth, complete with faked letters from a nonexistent German adept. We could have done the same thing - it used to be very traditional in the occult scene, you know - but decided to break with tradition and be honest about our origins instead.
Your so-called Golden Dawn system is a grab-bag of random magical practices from many different sources.
No, it's a grab-bag of very carefully chosen magical practices from many different sources. So is the system taught by the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, where officers who are visualizing themselves as Egyptian gods recite passages from the Chaldean Oracles and point out diagrams from medieval alchemy while leading candidates up the Qabalistic Tree of Life.
The Golden Dawn tradition is patriarchal and sexist.
You might want to tell that to the smart, capable, hardworking women who make up a good half of the membership and leadership of most Golden Dawn temples these days, and have been a major part of the tradition since 1887. I don't think they've heard.
The Golden Dawn is obsolete, a dead current with no power left to it. Why are you wasting your time with it?
We've heard that claim. Funny how none of the people who have insisted on that in our hearing have put in the couple of years' daily practice and study of the complete Golden Dawn curriculum that would give them the right to an informed opinion.
Neopaganism in General Section
Can you tell me where I can find a local DOGD temple so I can circle with them on the Sabbats? Blessed Be!
You seem to have gotten us confused with the Wiccan coven down the road. Since, like most Druids, we don't 'circle' or celebrate the Sabbats, and our temple ceremonies are open only to those who've earned the right to attend them, your question is right up there with phoning up the local synagogue and asking whether you can attend their Easter service and praise Jesus.
Why don't any of your rituals invoke the Goddess?
You seem to have gotten us confused with the Wiccan coven down the road, too. We're not the Wiccan Order of the Golden Dawn, so we don't invoke Wiccan deities.
But all the gods are one God, and all the goddesses are one Goddess!
Dion Fortune wrote that as a theme for meditation, not as a dogma - and as a dogma, it's one we have zero interest in accepting.
I insist that you take sides in the latest overblown squabble in the Neopagan community.
Sorry, we're too busy practicing Druidical magic to get involved just now. When the Neopagan community makes up its mind about whatever it is, though, please do let us know.
Polytheists are horrible god-abusers who force the gods into tiny little boxes.
We don't know what you've been smoking, but if you think that anyone can force the gods into anything, you probably need to lay off it for a while.
Ceremonial magic is all about dominating, commanding, and abusing spirits.
Tell us, do you also believe that witches all worship Satan? The two stereotypes are about equally accurate. Or were, before so many Wiccans decided to go in for demonolatry. Hmmm. We probably need a different comparative stereotype now.
'Special Snowflake' Section
I'm a high-ranking initiate in (insert one: Druidry or the Golden Dawn), so I shouldn't have to go through your study program. You should just let me in at my current exalted rank.
If you're a high-ranking initiate, you already know that every occult tradition has its own distinctive practices and teachings, and that initiates need to learn and practice those, rather than some rough equivalent from another tradition. If you're a high-ranking initiate, furthermore, you have the chops - and the humility - to prove yourself to us by completing our training program in exemplary form.
I don't need the sort of formal training you offer, because magic pours off me like sweat.
We think there's a soap for that.
I'm not interested in studying and practicing magic; I want to be ordained so I can perform weddings and try to make people take me seriously. Can't I just pay you some money and get ordination?
Thank you, but I think you want the cheap credential mill down the road. We're not a church, we don't do ordination, and even if we did we wouldn't hand out ordinations to people who are just looking for status.
I'm not interested in studying and practicing magic; I want a charter for a temple so I can swagger around and impress the clueless. Can't I just pay you some money and get a charter?
Thank you, but there's already an ample supply of pompous blowhards in the alternative spirituality scene and we really don't see much point in helping to mint one more.
I can't be bothered to read your Membership page. Just tell me how to join.
The first requirement is reading the Membership page. Oh, and some basic manners would help, too.
I want to join your order, but you need to stop doing magic, because I don't like magic.
Life is full of little disappointments, isn't it? We wish you the best of luck somewhere else.
I'm not a member of your order, but I want to join your members-only Deeamwidth community.
One of the requirements of learning magic is being able to read, understand, and follow basic instructions. We recommend that you try practicing that for a while before attempting anything more complicated.
But how can I learn about your order if I can't join your Dreamwidth community?
Have you considered reading this website and The Celtic Golden Dawn, and then emailing the office if you have any further questions?
My grandmother was a third degree member of an otherwise undocumented Druid Golden Dawn order and so I outrank you all.
That's nice. We're all very happy for you.
My magical rituals are far more powerful than anything you teach.
That's nice. We're all very happy for you too.
I've invented a brand new system of (insert one: magic, divination, or spirituality) that's much better than anything you have, and you should drop what you're doing and come follow me.
Tell you what - you can write your own book, get it published, launch your own website, start your own order, and wait for the adoring crowds to show up, without bothering with us!
Off The Wall Section
The (insert one: Druids or Golden Dawn) are a bunch of baby-murdering Satan worshippers - it says so right here in the Bible.
The Bible doesn't mention either the Druids or the Golden Dawn. It does, however, say some very pointed things about bearing false witness against your neighbors.
I'm a New Atheist who likes to abuse and berate people who think that sky fairies exist. If you won't let me join your order, you must be prejudiced against atheists.
No, we're prejudiced against jerks. We have no problem with atheists, but we do expect members of our Order to treat one another with basic courtesy.
You need to grow up and stop believing in primitive superstitions like magic.
Au contraire, you need to grow up and stop believing that we care what you think about magic - or, or that matter, anything else.
The Golden Dawn is just one more front organization for the evil reptilian beings from outer space who control Earth's political and economic system.
We watched that bad 1980s sci-fi miniseries too, but we didn't mistake it for a documentary.
I'm descended from one of the dragon bloodlines brought to earth by the wise reptilian beings from outer space who created humanity, and so you ought to welcome me into your order.
See our answer to the previous tantrum. You guys ought to get together for lunch sometime.
It's anti-Semitic to suggest that the Tree of Life might not originally have been Jewish.
By the same logic, it's horribly anti-Irish to point out that potatoes originated in Peru. The fact remains that a diagram structurally identical to the Tree of Life appears in Chinese sources roughly a century before the first appearance of the Tree in Jewish literature.
And finally...
I'm really saddened that you choose to dismiss your critics as 'throwing tantrums.' Wouldn't it be more meaningful to engage them and their critiques?
No, it wouldn't. There are only so many hours in a day, and we'd much rather spend our free time studying and practicing Druidical magic, than waste it responding to an endless stream of repetitive arguments from people who are out to start fights, score points, or get really saddened about other people making their own choices.
